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City:Mahomet, Il. US
Personal Data:Male, born: August 15 1948
Membership22years 343days ago.
Last Login7years 212days ago.
Last Move12years 207days ago.
Phil Hall is currently Offline!Send a mail to Phil Hall


Message header
Area/Game:General
Topic:General
Subject:Re: Right to left
Posted by: Phil Hall - 21years 286days ago.
Message text
gugliandalf wrote:
Phil Hall wrote:
Upgrading them means you aren't flying those aircraft anymore but the myths of those aircraft.

That is exactly what "Blue Max" players want to play, otherwise they'd play something more complex like "Aces High" or "Air Force".

Said that, and after tipping my hat to the authors of such a great game, allow me some considerations on the matter.

First: I think the Dr1 is more or less good as it is. In the hands of a good pilot it can give a SPAD XIII or a S.E.5a an hard time in one-to-one. In opther aspects, it's doomed. It was in fact retired from service. But the Camel endured to end of war, and it doesn't perform better against "modern" german models. (Or so it seems, check out the "Is the Camel so bad?" series that I just made ).

Why this discrepancy between game and history?


Again there is no discrepancy between the game and history, only between game and myth. The Camel remains capable until the end of the game time. It will more than hold its own against the D-VII, although in real life it had a problem with it. It isn't going to hold out against the SS series or the D-VIII's, one more powerful and the other "sleeker". And keep in mind that while the SE soldiered on for quite a period after the war, the Camel didn't, being phased out for the Snipe. Notice that most rotary engines used by the British are French. Britain pressed the auto industry into engine production,(as did France. Their auto industry was second only to the U.S. in production capability) and during the war produced nearly 41000 aircraft engines, but 45000 aircraft. Bently redesigned the Clerget with aluminum cylinders to increase the horse power, but the industry as a whole had a very bad time producing engines, so Britain needed to obtain them from the French, who produced 88000 aircraft engines during the war while producing 52000 aircraft. This created a slowdown in aircraft production in Britain, and also meant that specs issued for new aircraft had to take in to account what was available to power them, the French keeping their newer designs for themselves. The Sopwith Snipe was designed to use the same power plants as the Camel. One of the reasons the Camel was credited with shooting down more a/c than other types is the simple fact that when it went into service it was the first twin gun Brit fighter and it equipped the bulk of the fighter squadrons, reaching the front a few months before the SE series,( which had production problems due to the lack of available H-S engines, the French using them for themselves. 1200 SE's were to be built by the end of 1917 but only 800 were completed). 15 squadrons on the western front were equipped with SE's and 26 with Camels. The Camel comprised nearly 1/2 of the squadrons on the front, with the SE's and other types comprising the rest. That's why the Camel shot down more enemy aircraft than other types. More chances.

It seems to me that the Camel suffers, by a series of unlucky circumstances, the granularity of the game. It is maneuverable, but it isn't more that the PFALZ D. III (IMHO overrated, but that's it). It should be fast, but it isn't more than a Dr.1. It just fell "on the wrong side of the blade" when rounding took place to adapt planes to the game system. [\quote]

Speed of the two aircraft falls within the range band chosen for a hex to represent at the altitude the "flat" game represents, that being 15000 feet. The "granularity" of the game is a consideration, but there we are talking game design and decisions that have to be made in regards to it.

Now, there are IMO some measures that could be taken to give justice to the Camel.
[quote}
1. Give the Camel at least 15L3 and 10L2. Although it was better turning right than left, it wasn't SO bad turning left. Now is worse than anything else!


Actually, it was. A bank angle of 30 deg. in either direction is dangerous in a Camel. To the left you risk a high speed stall, to the right a snap spin. The rudder area isn't great enough to overcome the forces of the spinning engine. This info comes from a fellow who flew the reproduction Camel at Old Rhinebeck, which had a slightly better engine, being a 160 hp Le Rhone.( As an aside, he also flew the 80 hp rotary Sop Tripe. When looping the Tripe he found out an interesting thing about looping a rotary engine a/c. As the plane looses airspeed at the top of the loop, but the engine keeps spinning at top speed, (1200 rpm), the a/c flat turns 90 deg to the right. So, if you are facing north when you begin the loop, at the top, inverted, you will flat turn east and come out of the loop facing west. Happened every time. Since he did the first loops in the Tripe, he refused to loop the Camel since he didn't know just where it was going to go with all the weight concetrated in such a small area). Basically, although you can't see it in the game, the Camel is getting more turn at a shallower angle than the other a/c.
[auote]
2. Leave out the "speed 3 or 4" malus on the firing table. So "slow" crates won't be restricted to three hexes to move in if they want to have any chance of a decent shot.
This seems interesting to me, as it will make everybody crank their engines and zoom. It should be real fun!


That is exactly why the deduction is in there, to keep people from cranking up and flying at max speed all the time. Try to catch a SPAD when he doesn't have to slow down to shoot at you. There is also the fact that the slower you go the less buffeting of the plane and pilot, making shooting better.

3. (Less likely of all) Make speeds right. It makes no sense that travelling 3 hexes is speed 3 for a Camel and speed 2 for an S.E. This issue is not only about the Camel, but I'm afraid is the most difficult to implement.

Now, I'm goin' to test the Camel against everybody else...


Don't get involved in the speed number. It doesn't really represent speed, and was originally called only the fuel usage number and you reduced your shooting by the number of hexes you moved. Rather than try to calculate a number to allow you to shoot at an aircraft in the same hex, the name was changed to fuel/speed number, then incorporated into the combat chart.

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23years 162days Pease1 Right to left
23years 162days Zif Re: Right to left
23years 162days abbati Re: Right to left
 23years 162days Pease1 Re: Right to left
 23years 162days Zif Re: Right to left
 23years 162days gugliandalf Re: Right to left
  23years 162days abbati Re: Right to left
  23years 162days gugliandalf Re: Right to left
  23years 161days von_Drinkoften Re: Right to left
   23years 162days Zif Re: Right to left
   23years 161days gugliandalf Re: Right to left
   21years 288days Steiner Re: Right to left
    21years 288days gugliandalf Re: Right to left
     21years 287days gugliandalf Re: Right to left
    21years 287days Steiner Re: Right to left
     21years 287days Phil Hall Re: Right to left
      21years 286days Phil Hall Re: Right to left
      21years 286days gugliandalf Re: Right to left
       21years 286days Phil Hall Re: Right to left
        21years 284days gugliandalf Re: Right to left
         21years 284days Phil Hall Re: Right to left
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          21years 284days Phil Hall Re: Right to left
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