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City:Fort Wayne US
Membership20years 304days ago.
Last Login2years 239days ago.
Last Move2years 263days ago.
teramaze is currently Offline!Send a mail to teramaze


Message header
Area/Game:Blue Max
Topic:Rules
Subject:Re: Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
Posted by: teramaze - 18years 316days ago.
Message text
Calsir wrote:
TXWard wrote:

Unless you know what the pilot instructions were for the Fokker D.VII, shouldn't apples be compared to apples? The "effective flying time" for the S.E.5a was 1-1/2 hrs., that of the Fokker D.VII was 1 hr. This gives the S.E.5a a 150% advantage over the D.VII, which is even better than the 140% in the game.



I beg to dissent. Effective flight time is not effective combat time. They have nothing to do with each other. Effective flight time (flight endurance) is more related with combat range, as in: go where the enemy is, fight, come back. The longer the endurance, the further you can fly.

Combat endurance is basically how long you can fight. Nowadays, with jet fighters with fuel guzzling afterburners, altitude is much less important as an energy storage, since you can basically go through a fuel tank in less than 10 minutes of dogfight. This is because modern a/c (and, to some extent, WWII a/c) fly at different fuel economy between cruise and combat, with at least an order of magnitude in fuel consumption difference. Fuel IS a major factor for disengagement in contemporary times.

In WWI, on the other hands, engines more or less ran at full power all the time and, barring airscrew design issues, more or less consumed the same amount of fuel in combat and 'cruise'.

The whole point revolves around a single argument: the engine power at those time was insufficient to feed combat manoeuvring (fast rolling and high g turning). The only other sources of energy were speed and altitude. As usual, barring odd situations, speed is life. Go slow and you are a sitting duck. Go fast and you may live. This basically means two things:

1) in order to manoeuvre you have to loose altitude.
2) since, with increasing speed, engine _thrust_ decreases, climb whenever you can to regain energy.

If a fight is tight, both opponents drop from the sky to treetop level in few minutes, as Phil Hall correctly wrote, citing the majority of WWI AARs.

As a last point, if you check BM design notes (http://pease1.sr.unh.edu/1/bluemax/designnotes.html you will notice that an air combat is supposed to last two minutes, which is at least one order of magnitude less than the effective flight time everybody has given in this discussion. It means, to me, that the whole fuel system (different a/cs) having different fuel capacities) is inconsistent.

In my opinion, the only consistent way to keep in check game length is to set a hard limit on game turns, since it looks quite unfeasible to introduce a good system to handle altitude and energy.

I could go further boring everybody about how manoeuvring is more important than speed to energy management, or do some math to demonstrate what I just stated, but I will stop this already too long post here.

--
Calsir


the best way to limit game is not fuel and or turns. it is ammo seeing the the avg front belt fed guns on both sides were 300 rounds per gun and round the same for rear or observers. you just can not use a short burst of ammo is five round as phil hall stated. it is more like ten to 15 rounds per short burst. but that does mean a major rewrite of the game but it can be done.

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18years 320days Killer1 [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 320days Capt-Tuttle Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 319days FENRIS Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 320days ksnake Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 320days SteveMartin Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 320days Ray_Collishaw Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
 18years 319days ksnake Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
  18years 319days redwom Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
  18years 319days SteveMartin Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 319days FENRIS Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 320days Ray_Collishaw Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 320days warrax Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 320days DBurkeG Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 319days gugliandalf Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
 18years 318days DBurkeG Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 320days Zif Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 320days imdog Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 312days Killer1 Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 312days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 320days Wishgamer Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 320days warrax Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
 18years 319days Regis Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
  18years 313days tyree Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 319days Swartz Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 319days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 319days Capt-Tuttle Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 319days TnT Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 319days ksnake Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 319days FENRIS Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
 18years 319days docmortand Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 319days rainbow Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 319days BlackSheep Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 319days tyree Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
 18years 319days Calsir Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
 18years 319days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
  18years 318days tyree Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
   18years 318days Zif Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
   18years 318days ksnake Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
   18years 317days ksnake Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
   18years 317days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
    18years 317days TXWard Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
     18years 317days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
      18years 317days TXWard Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
       18years 317days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
        18years 317days TXWard Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
         18years 316days Calsir Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
         18years 316days TXWard Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
         18years 316days teramaze Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
         18years 316days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
          18years 315days Calsir Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
           18years 315days teramaze Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
           18years 315days TXWard Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
            18years 315days Calsir Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
           18years 314days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
            18years 314days Calsir Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
             18years 314days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
         18years 316days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
         18years 316days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
         18years 316days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
          18years 316days DBurkeG Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
           18years 316days TXWard Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
           18years 316days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
            18years 316days DBurkeG Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
             18years 316days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
   18years 317days HeadMMoid Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
18years 317days Bombadil Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
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 18years 316days tyree Re: [BM][RULES] Making Fuel same for ALL in Blue Max. Serious thought here.
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